Lyn: Welcome back from Thanksgiving break, faithful readers! Aubree and I are back from the Starsight release party, where Brandon read an excerpt from Rhythms of War! If you’re not opposed to spoilers, you ought to go and check it out, if you haven’t already. We had a lovely time, but now Alice and I are ready to jump back into the reread with chapter one hundred and seven! Dalinar is (thankfully) coming off his bender in this chapter, and boy oh boy do we have a lot of information imparted to us about military strategy. I spent a lot of time on the map this week to help illustrate what’s going on, from locations of Oathgates to vague areas of conquest by the Voidbringers and arrows to indicate what Dalinar suspects their next movements to be. We hope this helps to better illustrate how the major players are moving on the world map, as we’re beginning to enter the end-game…
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread – if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done. You’re safe from broader Cosmere spoilers for this week.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.2.5.5 (the day after the last chapter with Navani)
Dalinar pulls himself out of the haze of alcohol he’s been under and attends a planning meeting, in which he realizes that they’ve misinterpreted the Voidbringers’ actions. They’re not planning on attacking Jah Keved – they’re going to attack Thaylen City. He leaves and talks briefly with Kadash about his excommunication, then we switch over to Taravangian, who’s having guilty thoughts about setting plans into motion regarding Dalinar…
Beginnings
Title: The First Step
What was the most important step a man could take? The first, obviously. But what did it mean?
A: He’s not entirely wrong, but not entirely right either. At this point, though, it’s important for him to take that first step out of self-pity and back into the fight.
Heralds: Battah (Battar), Wise/Careful. Elsecallers. Role: Counsellor. Chach, aka Chanarach (Chana). Brave/Obedient. Dustbringers. Role: Guard
A: Hmm. Well, both orders are represented by their members (Jasnah and Malata) in this chapter, and I expect that’s part of why they’re here. I also expect that the content of the meeting – strategy, consultation, and the effort to protect humanity from Odium – is also intended.
Icon: Kholin Glyphpair, denoting a Dalinar chapter
Epigraph: There is very little information about Bo-Ado-Mishram in more modern times. I can only assume she, unlike many of them, returned to Damnation or was destroyed during Aharietiam.
–From Hessi’s Mythica, page 226
A: Bahahaha! If you only knew!
L: Wishful thinking, here.
A: Right? I’m just waiting for one of the Fused to find that imprisoning gemstone…
Thematic Thoughts
He liked the ritual [of shaving]. The chance to prepare, to cut away the nightly chaff and reveal the real person underneath–furrows, scars, and harsh features included.
L: There’s a lot more going on with this than just the obvious, of course. The metaphor should be pretty clear, but he’s indicating that he doesn’t like hiding who he really is now. All of those imperfections are what make him who he is, and he’s not going to hide them. Or drown them in liquor. Not anymore.
Stories & Songs
Most, Navani included, seemed to remember him as more noble than he deserved. Yet he didn’t ascribe any magic to this. It was simply the way of human beings, subtly changing the past in their minds to match their current beliefs.
L: Similar to “history is written by the winners,” isn’t it? People do have a tendency to see what they want to see… all one needs to do is look at all the different interpretations of any religious text to see this apparent in the real world.
A: It’s also very much a matter of perception. Not only do we remember things from our own viewpoint, we always interpret them based on our own expectations and understanding at the time. People see you much differently than you see yourself. In this case, Dalinar was pretty much the ideal of the Alethi in many ways, the more so because he rarely let his doubts and uncertainties show. He looked confident and heroic from the outside, even though he was often unsure, frustrated, or simply running on adrenaline. In the matter of Rathalas, too, there was the PR campaign to spin the events into the most useful narrative they could. Even worse, for Dalinar, he’s changed so much in his own ideals and standards that he can’t help but see the younger version of himself as an immature, self-centered hothead – but everyone else remembers The Blackthorn as an idealized Alethi warrior. Cognitive dissonance FTW!
“Moelach seems to have settled in the Horneater Peaks. Joshor is on his way there now. We might again soon have access to the Death Rattles.”
L: I wonder why Moelach fled… Did it realize that Taravangian was taking advantage of its presence, maybe?
Relationships & Romances
Gavilar had taught him to shave. Their father had been too busy getting himself cut apart in foolish duels of honor, including the one where he’d taken a blow to the head. He’d never been right after that.
L: Is this the first time we’ve heard anything about Dalinar’s father? I think it is.
A: We’ve heard a very little bit about him before; Adolin thought about him for two sentences back in The Way of Kings, Chapter 12, noting that he’d suffered from delusions in his later years, believing he was back at war. (What war, we don’t know, but it seemed like the Alethi were always fighting one another if they didn’t have anyone else to fight, so that’s pretty believable.) I was amused by “he’d never been right after that” – it sounds to me like maybe he’d never exactly been what you’d call “right.”
L: I wonder if this is why Dalinar is, for the most part, so condescending regarding Adolin’s penchant for duels. It would make a lot of sense.
A: It would. He might remember a time when he thought his dad was pretty cool for being a duelist, but that stage was clearly overshadowed by a time when he realized that the duels were stupid and useless. I wonder if Dalinar also saw them as his father trying and failing to relive his “glory days” of being a warrior.
L: Well, I more meant that he’s remembering that it was a duel that resulted in his father’s injury, and he might be afraid that his son would suffer the same fate. I can absolutely see Dalinar subconsciously blaming dueling for his father’s condition, and that’s why he thinks of duels as stupid and useless.
A: Hmm. That’s a fair point. Given their society, it’s not a thing you could outright tell your son not to do – especially not with “fear for your brainbox” as a rationale – but it might well be that Dalinar dislikes dueling for more reasons than just “it’s only pretend war.” And I have to say, watching your parent go delusional is really hard.
“You’re more patient than I deserve. You should have dumped me out of bed and poured the wine on my head.”
“I had a feeling you’d push through.”
L: These two are just too sweet.
A: …but I’d have laughed if she followed his suggestion. Just sayin’.
Bruised & Broken
“You’re not the man you were back then.”
Oh, Navani. I never grew beyond that man; I just hid him away.
L: Interesting philosophical query; is he right? Is all growth and change just burying the things we don’t like about ourselves, and encouraging the things we do want to grow in their stead? Our experiences are a part of us, unless we forget them entirely (supernaturally or otherwise), but even then… scars remain, scars which subtly change us. Everything that happens to us changes us, so can we ever truly say that we’re not the person we were before? Or are we an amalgamation of all the people we’ve been, piled one atop the other until each individual ceases to be recognizable as such, like colors blending into black?
A: Is a fruit merely the same thing as the seed from which it grew? Is a peach seed the same as a peach tree the same as a peach? They all have the same basic genes, but growth means that you leave some things/forms behind as you become the next thing. You’re not (quite) the same person today as you were yesterday, because you had some small experience which changed the way you looked at some small thing. No one is ever quite the same person they used to be.
In this case, I think Dalinar believes he hasn’t changed, and IMO he’s wrong – but there are a couple of mitigating factors. We need to keep in mind that Dalinar hasn’t yet recovered the memory of his visit to the Nightwatcher; at this point, he assumes that he merely asked to forget – taking the coward’s way out of dealing with his pain. Although that’s more or less what he intended to ask, even then he had grown enough to realize that he needed forgiveness, and he unintentionally asked for it. The decision to go to the Nightwatcher was, as we talked about a few weeks ago, one step toward dealing with his past in a way that didn’t involve alcohol poisoning.
Another thing he hasn’t yet realized is that he has grown and changed tremendously in the intervening years. It may be that this growth would not have been possible if certain memories hadn’t been removed; that doesn’t mean he didn’t grow. IMO, the removal of those particular memories didn’t change his essential character, and it’s that person who was able to grow into the Dalinar who became the first Bondsmith in centuries.
L: If he’d gone back to the way he was before after getting his memories back, there’d be a case for him not changing. But he’s definitely not the Blackthorn anymore.
A: No, in this case, I think Navani is more correct than Dalinar, though both have elements of truth. Yes, Dalinar did hide (or have hidden from him) some of his experiences, but he has outgrown the need to bury them, and is (as we will see soon enough) now ready to face them. All of them.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
L: I’m going to put Ialai here, for lack of a better place…
Her silence now didn’t mean she was being respectful. It meant she was saving her barbs to whisper where he couldn’t hear.
L: You know… I both love and hate her. I love her because she’s playing the Game of Houses/Thrones perfectly–you want to be circumspect, you want to spread rumors to take your enemies down as ruthlessly as possible. But I hate her because damn, woman, there is more at stake here. Also I value honesty… and she’s definitely the opposite of that. (I would be a terrible, terrible politician.)
A: I dunno; I think we could all use a little more honesty in politics! But you’d hate it, so there’s that. Anyway… I agree on Ialai; she’s clever (despite Jasnah’s barb about “work harder on the intelligent part”) and has shown herself to be quite capable of plotting to secure her own ends. Back in the day, her “ends” lined up with those of Gavilar and Dalinar; hence Dalinar’s recollection of the days when they’d joked together. In more recent years, her goals separated from his. IMO, she was always looking out for her own personal interest, and she (and Torol) put their money on Gavilar as their own best bet for a rise to power and wealth. As long as that’s what was happening, they were aligned; after Gavilar’s death and Dalinar’s trip to the Nightwatcher, it became apparent that they could advance their own power by undermining Dalinar and crowding him out of his influence over Elhokar, so… that’s what they pursued. Now, she still wants power, but she also wants (what she sees as) revenge, since she’s convinced Dalinar was behind Torol’s death. I suppose in a way I can’t blame her for that, but… as you say, Lyndsey, humanity itself is at stake here, and you’d think she could set aside her personal issues for a while.
“Taravangian?” Dalinar said. “We’ll leave troops in Jah Keved too, in case I’m wrong. Don’t worry.”
The old man looked to Dalinar, then strangely wiped tears from his eyes.
“Are… are you in pain?” Dalinar asked.
“Yes. But it is nothing you can fix.” He hesitated. “You are a good man, Dalinar Kholin. I did not expect that.”
L: Yikes. We readers, with our inside knowledge of what’s going on with Taravangian, realize what’s going on here. He feels guilty for putting plans into motion that will result in Dalinar’s death. Poor Dalinar, though, has no clue…
A: Even as I pity Taravangian, I really hate him. If “the greater good” requires deliberate sacrifice of good people without their knowledge, is it really the greater good? It’s not an easy question, I’ll admit; nonetheless, I find it deeply disturbing that he takes it upon himself to decide who lives and who dies.
“We’ve found what happened to Graves,” Adrotagia continued. “Scavengers found the storm-blown wreckage of his wagon, and there was an intact spanreed inside.”
“Graves is replaceable.”
“And the Shards?”
“Irrelevant,” Taravangian said. “We won’t win the prize through force of arms. I was reluctant to let him try his little coup in the first place.”
He and Graves had disagreed about the Diagram’s instructions: to kill Dalinar or recruit him?
L: Well, we knew that Graves was dead (he was with Moash when the Fused attacked), but it’s cool to see this verification of how he fit into the Diagram organization!
A: It still seems odd to me, that Taravangian can be so confident in the Diagram that he orders people murdered on the strength of it, and at the same time allow his underlings to decide that it means something different that requires a whole different set of people to be murdered.
Places & Peoples
“We don’t want to normalize what you’ve done or what you’re saying. That doesn’t mean we will abandon our posts. Your people need us, Dalinar, even if you believe you don’t.”
L: I’m really glad that Kadash, at least, is a good man too. He’s more concerned about his flock than himself. The ardentia shares a lot of traits with modern organized religion, and this sentiment seems to echo what a lot of religions believe – do what’s right, regardless of what government (ie, earthly power) tells you. Man is fallible. The god you believe in, presumably, is not. This gets a little murky in this particular situation, considering what we know about the Cosmere as a whole and that holders of Shards (who were usually at one time mortal) are often revered as deities… and hoo boy, are a lot of them fallible!
A: Heh. It’s well written, and it’s one of my ongoing frustrations with the Cosmere – all the “deities” turn out to be just normal, fallible human beings with extra power but no extra intelligence.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“I was excommunicated from the Vorin church soon after hearing of Kholinar’s fall. I took it poorly. Did you expect me to react by throwing a feast?”
“I expected you to lead us, not sulk.”
I deserved that.
L: Yeah… you kinda did.
A: Yep.
“Ialai,” Jasnah said, “it is good you are here. Sometimes, an intelligent dissenting voice tests and proves a theory. I do wish you’d work harder on the intelligent part.”
L: ::wistful sigh:: Jasnah, you absolute treasure.
A: This whole scene was so rich. I find it highly amusing that Dalinar’s Eureka! moment is the result of a snarkfest.
“But most of our ships were lost to the blustering Everstorm.”
A: I have to point this out as a most suitable epithet from a Thaylen admiral. “The blustering Everstorm” seems so fitting from him.
Weighty Words
There is one I have been watching, the Stormfather added. I can see her, when I don’t see others.
“A leader?” Dalinar asked.
Maybe.
L: This has to be Venli. I imagine the Stormfather can see her because she’s also a proto-Radiant… but this begs the question, why can’t he see the other Voidspren? Can Odium mask them from him, somehow?
A: I honestly have no idea, and no theory either. It’s logical that if there’s only one member of Team Odium he can see, it’s got to be Venli and it’s got to be because of Timbre. But I don’t know why.
“This place is awful. Every last idiot here is frozen, ears to toes.”
L: Well… that’s an interesting saying!
She reached forward, whipping off her glove–safehand no less–and pressing it against the table.
Marks spread out from the point of contact, little swirls of blackness etching themselves into the wood. The scent of burning filled the air, but the flames didn’t persist if she didn’t will them to.
The swirls and lines extended across the tabletop, a masterwork of engraving accomplished in moments.Malata blew off the ash. The Surge she used, Division, caused objects to degrade, burn, or turn to dust.
L: I love how she just does this for fun. There’s literally no reason for her to do it, other than to prove a point–I’m dangerous, and don’t you forget it.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“Still there, I see,” Dalinar said, relieved.
Where would I go?
“I hurt you,” Dalinar said. “When I activated the Oathgate. I was afraid you would leave me.”
This is the lot I have chosen. It is you or oblivion.
L: Oblivion? Interesting. I wonder if he’s referring to oblivion coming if Odium achieves his goals, or if he’s saying that breaking his oaths now would result in his destruction…
A: I’m assuming that if their bond were broken, he’d go back to being essentially the mindless storm, rather than the increasingly sapient being he is. I’m not sure that makes sense, entirely, though, because he seemed to be pretty intelligent prior to bonding…
I… may have felt something, the Stormfather said. During a recent highstorm, it felt like Stormblessed was there with me.
L: I kind of like that the Stormfather calls Kaladin “Stormblessed.” Not Kaladin… not “the windrunner…” No. Stormblessed. It’s a damn cool name so I’m happy to see it, but it rather denotes a degree of respect (especially coming from the storm), doesn’t it?
A: I think it does, and it does indeed seem like a high compliment from him. I’m fascinated that he can feel Kaladin through the highstorm in Shadesmar.
“Spark is game for whatever it takes to get vengeance. And what lets her break stuff.”
L: Very interesting. Vengeance for the Recreance and her fallen brothers and sisters, perhaps? Or vengeance against the Voidbringers?
A: Given her comment just a couple of paragraphs earlier, about “what the Radiants did to Spark’s friends” and the death of “hundreds of ashspren,” I have to assume she’s referring to the Recreance. She doesn’t seem to notice (or at least care) that there were hundreds of other spren involved as well. Granted that a number of the orders’ spren seem to be reluctant to trust humans again, the ashspren are the only ones who are outright hostile.
Chapter 108 is another long one, back with the Shadesmar Exploration Society, so we’ll just tackle that one next week. (L: Kal and Adolin return! Hooray!)
Alice is happily playing Christmas carols again. It’s Advent!!
Lyndsey had an absolutely amazing time at the Starsight release in Utah! Have you started reading it yet? If not, SCUD, WHY NOT? Get going, it’s an amazing book! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Re: Moelach
I don’t think he fled exactly, I think he moved to the Horneater Peaks because Odium was closing in on Cultivation’s Perpendicularity. When Kaladin and the crew are in Shadesmar it’s mentioned how dangerous that area has become.
In OB, I definitely caught on Dalinar commenting on how his worthless father spent more time healing from injuries received during foolish duels of honor than in being *there*. I definitely thought Dalinar’s dislike towards dueling came from his father. Those handful of snippets on Dalinar’s father brings a whole new dimension to Adolin dueling “for honor” in WoK or in Adolin wagering his Shardplate to a man twice his age and his experience level just because “he insulted his father” (on purpose, to goat the kid and earn his Plate).
I thought this was, yet, another instances of fathers not talking to sons or being on antipodes without ever trying to discuss it. Dalinar loves the warfare and the hunting, he believes all tools are valid to secure victories, he doesn’t care if the forces on both sides aren’t equivalent. If he has an advantage, he will use it. Adolin dislikes the warfare and the hunting, he finds the latest dishonorable because the animals never have a chance. He prefers testing his strength against an opponent having exactly the same equipment as him.
It appears old man Kholin had a similar take on fighting than his grand-son. It appears Adolin takes not only after Evi, but also after his grand-father who was a duelist and a soldier. He too presumably couldn’t take an insult.
And yes, I definitely thought Dalinar’s contempt towards Adolin’s passion directly came from his experience with his father, which is understandable, but wouldn’t be much of an issue, if he just sat down with his son and talked to him.
I have a different take on change: people seldom ever change. They grow, they hone some personality traits over others, they gain life experience, but to the core, they do not change so much. Hence, Dalinar hasn’t really changed all that much. Yes, he learned how to control his personal impulses, he learned not all means are good to get what he wants, he learned a life without control leads to disastrous consequences, he learned that, yes, when he behaves this way, that’s actually his fault. He could have never used those lessons life thrown at him and the fact he did is why we say he has *changed*, but deep down, he still is the same man we saw early in the flashbacks. He loves the warfare, he loves a good battle, he loves to move, he doesn’t care about rules of engagement so long as he can win. He is rigid, he still struggles with control, and he still does not express easily many emotions, especially not love.
He is the same person. He just refuses to live a life without boundaries and that’s the big change he made to himself: to accept his natural impulses are not always the right solution to the problem at hand. And he is *still* learning this. I mean, he goes to fight while having a discussion because he believes he cannot win if it isn’t a physical fight, he stages this fight with Fen’s son: there are plenty of examples of Dalinar still defaulting towards using physical strength to lead. The difference is now he is aware he is doing it and he realizes there are other ways, even if they don’t come naturally to him.
So no, I don’t think Dalinar changed who he was, he just accepted to grow from his life experience, to learn from them as opposed to repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
On Ialai: I want more of her. I *really* hope Amaram’s defeat will not result in throwing her out of the narrative. Someone has to react to Adolin having murdered Torol. And it seems there is plenty of places to toss that into RoW, but we’ll see.
On Dalinar: I like the fact he admits not deserving being loved as much as he currently is. I wish Brandon had explore this narrative a little bit more than he did in OB.
@1: Which is why I think one of the arcs will go there in RoW, my guess is either the Venli/Kaladin arc or the “still unknown” second one.
I do hope we get a litlte more out of Malata and Spark in future books. She definitely makes me uneasy.
And since the ‘most important step’ came up in this chapter, I get to add this, as the book has been on my brain. We went to see Frozen II over the holiday weekend, and there’s a whole plot point/song around having to take the next step and that was the first thing I thought of, lol.
It would be a bit more terrifying if Malata was not referring to the Recreance. It was said that the Dustbringers Releasers were not exactly trusted before, seen as too similar to void binding. What if they were subjects of witch hunts after the last desolation?
I wish I felt the same. I find shaving to be a highly annoying chore.
So first and foremost thank you so much for the hard work on the map! It looks great and really hammers home how outnumbered our heroes are.
I love seeing the depth of the love between Dalinar and Navani. Being strong for each other, and understanding each other at a deep level.
Great point about masking voidspren. Totally missed that on my re-reads. It does open up a lot of interesting implications.
I know there is nothing to support it, and it is a total tinfoil hat theory, but I still feel like Malata is going to be revealed to be a good guy in the end. That she infiltrated the diagram or some such. Got nothing to support it. It is total conjecture, but I still think it will happen.
I think oblivion refers to how Syl was growing basically mindless as Kaladin failed to uphold his oaths. The first bondsmith in hundreds of years got me thinking about a new theory that I haven’t seen before in regards to the sibling. (It partly relies on an older theory I have had.)
The older theory is that Ishar is Melishi. We know from Nale that heralds can also become Radiants. Melishi was behind whatever was done to the Parshmen and this seems like something Ishar would have been behind as it would further his interest in no more desolations. We also know that Ishar and nale have been meddling more than the other heralds. My theory is that Ishar became a bondsmith influence events.
My new theory is that Ishar as Melishi was bonded to the sibling. Whatever he did to the Parshmen, combined with his shady actions in general has weakened the sibling (similar to Syl in Words of Radiance) but he is still bonded to the Sibling even after all these years.
@7 John
Interesting theory! My only problem with it is that Nale said if I recall correctly that he is the first herald to have bonded a spren of his order. But Nale could have been wrong, or not known that Ishar did it. Personally I do not think it is the case, but I wish you luck with your theory!
@6 – Do you mean she was a mole before her role as a Radiant? Because she was already on the Diagram team when she attracted her spren and became a Dustbringer.
@9 Austin
I think it was before she bonded spark, and that spark bonded her for that reason. I think that the dustbringer spren got a bad rep, and we continually read them as being like voidbringers to get us to distrust them when the reality is quite different. That the spren were obedient to honor, and were planning on how to help all along, but given their bad rep, and are mistrusted, they decided to use that bad rep to further their undercover goals. So I think Malata and Spark were of the same purpose but separate originally. Malata on her own might have been investigating the Diagram because she lost someone to it. While she investigated (being brave), and obedient to her family by infiltrating the Diagram, she attracted Spark. Spark bonds her, because they have similar goals and she shows the qualities that the dustbringers would represent.
So basically my theory is more a fanfic that I hope will turn out right, because there is literally nothing shown in the books that would give any of this any credence. But still hoping for it all the same.
edit: lol actually the only thing I could actually say could tangentally supports this, is that when asked about Dustbringers, Sanderson said they were really weird. Though that could be because of the theory regarding Shallash, or it could be because of both my theory and Shallash, or not at all lol
Cemci
Have we– I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, I think you have.
Cemci
My question is, have we met two Edgedancers? And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?
Brandon Sanderson
One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.
Cemci
Haven’t been yet?
Brandon Sanderson
No, not yet, I don’t think. But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.
Cemci
I don’t.
Brandon Sanderson
Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order. If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.
Cemci
Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?
Brandon Sanderson
Well– Dustbringers are really complicated. Really complicated. So that’s the weird one. Okay? So let’s shelve that one. You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.
Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)
@8 Scath
First does not mean only. Ishar could have seen Nale accomplish this and then done the same.
Lyn. Although I cannot guess as to what Odium’s end game, I think it has something to do with the darkness in Shadesmar that engulfs the area around Cultivation’s Perpendicularity. (marethyu316 @1 be me to this point)
Alice. In a more literal sense (meaning not philosophical), in the Cosmere the seed, fruit and tree would probably see themselves as three different things, each probably represented by a different sphere. A human, on the other hand, would always see him/herself as the same person, even if she or he acknowledges they have changed their outlook due to circumstances. I understand what I am talking about is completely different from the point you make. But I think the rules Brandon created make what I mentioned any interesting point. (Apologies for the last sentence. I am not (always
) as pompous as that sentence makes me sound.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@11 Roger Pavelle
Nale said:
“I am not only a Herald, but a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal. Though i was originally skeptical of the Radiants, I believe I am the only one who eventually joined his own order”
So as of the period of time where he is speaking to Szeth, Nale believes he is the only herald to bond a radiant spren. If Ishar was to be Melishi, be bonded to the Sibling, and turn the singers into the parsh slaves, then Ishar would have had to bond the Sibling centuries ago. Which is why I said perhaps Ishar did it secretly and Nale did not know. I do not believe that to be true, but it is certainly possible. So I wish them luck with their theory.
@12 Andrew HB
Brandon has spoken at length on the ship of Theseus and how it would manifest in the cognitive realm. It is very interesting. If you are curious, I can try to post it here or direct message it to you.
I agree with @marethyu316 that it didn’t flee, but went where Odium sent it. We just don’t know why yet.
Why can’t Ruin and Preservation see metal, even though they actually are made of metal (since atium and lerasium are their bodies)? There’s a lot we still don’t know about the underpinnings of the Cosmere.
I have commented in other threads: the Stormfather can apparently talk to Windrunners across thousands of miles (distance measured from the Highstorm). He talked to Kaladin across the leagues earlier in Oathbringer and he’ll talk to Lopen the same way at the end.
Nice writeup, Alice and Lyndsey.
So I believe this chapter’s epigraph is the first time Hessi has been demonstrably wrong. And that this is the hole in her knowledge is interesting to me- Ba-Ado-Mishram played a major part in the False Desolation, which was just before the Recreance, and 2000 years after Aharietiam. Which tells us that there’s apparently a gaping hole in whatever sources Hessi’s using- that there aren’t any references to Ba-Ado-Mishram from those two millennia that she considers reliable.
@@@@@ 6, 10, Scáth
That’s not a bad shout regarding Spark. Sanderson did pull of a similar situation with a certain group in Mistborn, which was really fantastic. Wouldn’t surprise me if he did something like that again.
Hmmm, I wonder how justifiable it is for me to think Kaldin’s mother wrote Mythica despite the fact that there is no evidence for it (other than a similar name) and that there are so many reasons against it…
The Stormfather felt Kaladin’s presence when he accidentally used the oracle at the light-tower.
@16 Keyblazing
Thanks! Fingers crossed! lol
@18 Agreed. I don’t think the Stromfather would have felt him (or have the ability to feel him) outside of that oracle experience. But that linked Kaladin more directly to the storm.
@13 I would certainly be interested in the Ship of Theseus discussion if you can post the link.
@ChocolateRob: I like that idea. Brandon even foreshadowed it, with another scholar (one of Jasnah’s colleagues) also not being a lighteyed woman as he pretended. And we know that K’s mother has lighteyed ancestors ….
@20 whitespine
Could have sworn they were longer (it may be the formating, or I just haven’t recalled the word to pull up the one I am picturing), but they are still pretty in depth. Links below:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183/#e3913
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9405
@22 Sweet, thanks!
@14: Ruin and Preservation can see metal just fine. It’s just that all metal in Scadriel is so Invested that it glows from the SR/CR; it’s too bright to make out fine details like engraved letters.
@24
Ruin and Preservation being blinded by metal contributes to one of my personal theories about Stormlight. It is only a part of general worldbuilding.
I theorize that the reason members of the Vorin church burn their prayer glyphs is because Honor (and Cultivation) can’t see things unless they are lit by more normal light sources (daylight, torchlight, candles, etc.) because gemlight is blinding to to them similar to the invested metal on Scadriel. The need to light all prayers with firelight to make it visible to “god” evolved into a ritual burning of the written prayer. Just a pet theory. I haven’t seen any plot-relevant implications.
That sounds a little like Forgery.
@BrianMInton, the difference being that in Forgery (and all Sel magics) the meaning of the symbols is paramount. That scene doesn’t have any obvious indication that the symbolic nature of Malata’s etching has a magical effect. Could be, of course, but I didn’t see it there.
Now, if a Forger were to Nahel Bond with an Ashspren, she might get a super-effective resonance ….
Now that I think about it, though, Forgers don’t etch their symbols into things. They’re adding something (ink) rather than subtracting. I have no idea if that affects the magic or not.
Maybe Hessi did know about BAM, but didn’t want to tell the truth and possibly provoke another Recreance?
ChocolateRob @17: I can’t see how Hessina (Kaladin’s mother) could have possibly had access either to the sources that Jasnah failed to locate despite intensive search, but Hessi posessed, or to funding needed to publish her book. Their names just contain the same root, which, given Alethi naming conventions, shouldn’t be surprising. I’d really love to learn the meaning of all the prominent characters names at some point. Also, whoever “Hessi” is, they are likely writing under a pseudonym.
Speaking of gemstone prisons, given BAM’s power and ability to Connect to all the parsh, wouldn’t another massive perfect gem been needed to contain her? I know that the black gem that Szeth buried in rural Jah Keved (on Davar lands, perhaps?) is the leading contender for her receptacle, but after seeing what was required to trap the Thrill, I have my doubts.
Concerning Kholin family’s view of Dalinar – yea, after reading his flashbacks it was somewhat jarring to go back to WoR prologue and remember how Jasnah thought about him in her PoV as one of the best people she had ever known – and she was supposed to be more objective than average! A recent exchange with Gepeto in the comments to Chapter 97 of this reread made me think that maybe the whole family got served a highly edited version of the destruction of Rathalas that put responsibility for it squarely on Sadeas. Then not just Adolin, but also Navani and Jasnah would have viewed Dalinar’s subsequent breakdown (over Evi’s death, yes, but I am sure that his drunken ramblings also betrayed mental torment over Rathalas), as evidence of his goodness. They wouldn’t have been troubled by his previous actions, because they were very much in Alethi ideal mold and he was indeed honorable by their standards and frequently more merciful to civilian populations than the norm.
It is not like outright warfare is less hazardious to one’s brainbox than duels! I wouldn’t even say that Dalinar was really all that disdainful of duels – he just saw them as too divisive during the Vengeance war and not satisfying enough to fully feed his Thrill addiction back when he was Blackthorn.
Dalinar’s idea of giving away Kholin ardentia strikes me as uncharacteristically idiotic, not to mention that he’d have been seriously overreaching his prerogatives yet again, as per his agreement with Ehlokar, they had become the king’s and/or Adolin’s ardents. And the ardents provide a lot of essential services, from Soulcasting to clerking to research to medicine. Everything would have fallen apart if they had walked out on him.
I completely disagree with the notion that the Shards are any more human and fallible than deities in RL religious texts, and not just the pantheistic ones!
I love Queen Fen and hope that we’ll see more of her in the next 2 volumes.
If the Stormfather sees Venli because she is a proto-Radiant, why doesn’t he see Nale and his Skybreakers? And yet, he previously stated that the only Herald he could see was Ishar…
Malata using Division for fun reminds me of how Shallan disapprovingly observed Jasnah using Soulcasting for fun back in WoK. I suspect that nearly all Radiants do it. It is also worth noting that at this point Malata believes that Taravangian will protect her native Jah Keved and whatever other countries come under his sway, via his deal with Odium. She is quite likely to flip once she learns the truth – here is to hoping that it occurs to her and Spark to spy on Mr. T from time to time. I wonder how other Diagrammists could believe that T. would be able to make a favorable agreement with Odium, if Odium managed to recruit Dalinar. They work hard to ensure that Dalinar falls to Odium, but had that happened, he wouldn’t have needed Mr. T or them. Hm…
Spark does seem remarkably short-sighted in her pursuit of vengeance – and it is worth noting that she is, apparently, one of the few Nahel spren who were alive during the Recreance and she still doesn’t know what it was about. But the ashspren aren’t the only Radiant ones who are currently inimical to humans – what look like Stoneward spren were pretty hostile to Our Heroes in Celebrant too, IIRC, and _none_ of them bonded so far.
John @7:
Very interesting. Melishi is clearly named after Ishar and I, for one, am certain that Ishar was heavily involved in instigating the Recreance, but I don’t think that they have to be the same person. However, Melishi’s last-minute “insight” that he was too pressed for time to record and which led him to change the plan in some way, according to the respective WoR epigraph, could have come directly from Ishar. It wouldn’t also surprise me if Ishar killed Melishi after the deed was done, so that his actions couldn’t be repared or his bond rebuilt.
Birgit @18:
Thirded.
@29: To follow up on our exchange, I do think it is odd Jasnah would readily buy into a romanticized version of Dalinar’s deeds. She isn’t the one prone to let her emotions guide her thought process and she has made the seeking of truth her lifetime achievement. Hence, how is it, when it comes to Dalinar, Jasnah analysis is so far off from the truth? How is it she came to dismiss how Dalinar has treated young Renarin? Surely the man who’s unable to love his youngest son and ignores him readily disqualifies himself from being the “greatest man Jasnah has ever known”. I mean, had Jasnah’s thoughts on Dalinar been more objective such as: “My uncle has not always been kind of heart, but in the last years, he has grown a lot in this regards up to a point where I do find he has become a great person”, then yes, I’d buy it.
Unfortunately, Jasnah talks of Dalinar as if he were the seventh wonder in the world and I do think it clashes with how her character has been presented so far. In other words, I expect a more balanced point of view from Jasnah, a more realistic take, a stronger analysis of her uncle. After all, she is old enough to have known Dalinar before and after the Rift.
I also am not convinced neither Navani nor Jasnah did not know about Rathalas. If Gavilar knew, it seems logical to believe Navani and Jasnah knew too. If they didn’t, then again, it is odd Jasnah, of all people, hadn’t dig to find out what truly happened. I can buy Navani was pleased with the version which paints Dalinar, a man she has loved for years, in a positive light. I think this would fit with her character to readily believe Evi and Dalinar loved each other, to believe he is grieving her. I think this tale is one Navani wanted to believe, but Jasnah? Jasnah isn’t one to balk down in front of hard truth. She is one to want the truth no matter how hurtful it might be.
I, however, agree neither Jasnah nor Navani would be bothered by the bloody conquest of Alethkar. Navani was into it just as much as Gavilar and Dalinar. Jasnah thinks her family deserves to stand at the top and surely isn’t against war by itself. So yes, I do think it makes sense they would both not be bothered by Dalinar’s actions prior to the Rift though how he treated Renarin… That’s the sore spot. Everyone knew Dalinar rejected his youngest son and refused to acknowledge him. Did they all agree with his behavior because Renarin couldn’t be a soldier? This doesn’t add up with how much love and support Renarin has gotten from both Navani and Jasnah. Renarin has been loved and supported growing up, just not from the one person it mattered the most.
I do think Dalinar is disdainful of duels and I do think it has to do with his father. He grew up watching his father nurse injuries after injuries, failing to raise their house further up the ladder out of being too impulsive to refuse duels if his honor was compromised. Or the honor of his family. I think it makes a lot of sense Dalinar would have grown up thinking duels are a waste of time since they serve no direct purposes and cause needless injuries. He only agrees to Adolin dueling when he could find a purpose to them. It would be fun if Brandon were to follow-up on that… I have missed Adolin dueling in OB.
I think the Ardentia is not Dalinar’s to give away. He is trespassing on his authority! Just because he no longer believes in their faith does not mean they are suddenly useless nor he gets to tell them what to believe. This is one of Dalinar’s major flaws, this need to control everyone, to have everyone do as he says. It will surely be a problem within the next two books.
You are wrong, unless you charge it with feruchemy or hemalurgy, metal on scadrial is not specially invested more then any other metal in the cosmere
@Gepeto:
He never tells them what to believe, except in the sense of telling them the truth as he knows it. He absolutely has the authority to give them away, they’re his slaves! It’s the Ardents who are refusing to obey Alethi law here. He didn’t tell them to stop being Ardents, he tried to stop being their owner.
@23 Whitespine
No problem!
@26 Brian Minto and @28 Carl
Well like Carl said, stamping involves ink. However, it would make etching a stamp a lot easier and quicker. Though the same could be potentially accomplished with cohesion. Both would let the forger skip having to either use “soft” material to carve into, or having to use soulstone. Just touch the medium, etchings appear, then stamp away.
@29 Isilel
WoB confirmed there are enough perfect gemstones to capture all the Unmade
Shallan was concerned about how Jasnah was using the fabrial soulcaster, because that was before she found out Jasnah was a radiant. So she felt Jasnah was using a holy relic meant only for ardents, to make a paperweight and scribe letters into a piece of paper because she lacked ink. Now that she knows Jasnah is a radiant, it is different.
Gepeto @30:
I re-read the WoR prologue and Jasnah calling Dalinar the best man she has ever known isn’t there – so I guess that it must be in OB? And in this case, her view of him was definitely influenced by his positive change after Gavilar’s death – and, I guess that his much improved relationship with Renarin would have played into it.
Concerning Rathalas – the thing is that Sadeas has been chomping at the bit to state an example by brutalizing a conquered town for decades. He already suggested it in Dalinar’s first flashback! He was the one constantly pushing Gavilar to be harsher. While Dalinar, terrible and bloodthirsty on the battlefield as he was, was known for often being more than usually merciful to civilian population. So, for the people who have personal knowledge of the 2 men and love Dalinar, the version that puts all responsibility for Rathalas on Sadeas is very believable.
Carl @32:
Per Dalinar’s agreement with Ehlokar, those were no longer his ardents, but Ehlokar’s and/or Adolin’s and he had no confirmation of their deaths. He agreed to step down as Highprince Kholin. Not to mention that his people badly needed the services that the ardents provide.
Scáth @33:
I was pointing out that BAM probably needs a bigger gemstone to imprison her than the small gem given by Gavilar to Szeth. She was able to Connect to _all_ the parsh, everywhere, after all.
And what I meant concerning Jasnah was that she clearly enjoyed the frivolous use of her Soulcasting in WoK, just as Malata does here with her Division. This is likely perfectly normal for Radiants and not an additional sign of Malata’s shadiness.
@Isilel:
I wasn’t arguing that he made the right decision. I just say that his intentions were good. He didn’t want to make the Ardents miserable by forcing them to work for a heretic. One of Dalinar’s failings is that he assumes command even when he isn’t really entitled to it, as here where he forgets that he isn’t supposed to be Highprince any more.
This agreement was planned for the future, he did not step down as highprince yet, that is why Taravangian could use it against him in thaylen city
@32: I agree with Isilel: those ardents were no longer Dalinar’s to give away. It was terribly short-sighted of him to try to dismiss them to satisfy his own personal reasons. He has a problem in believing the Ardents have a problem working for him, so he wants to dismiss them without thinking of the consequences to other people. He just thinks it will be better for his own personal conscience.
@34: Jasnah doesn’t say those words during the prologue, but while trying to convince Shallan the casual with Adolin is a good idea. She tells Shallan her cousin has a good heart, almost as good as his father who’s the greatest man she has ever known. Please note, I am paraphrasing here, so maybe it is best to get the actual quote.
Still, it is interesting to note Jasnah considers Dalinar to have a greater heart than Adolin. At the time, I didn’t think much of it. Dalinar, while rigid and emotionally cold, did seem like a genuinely good person and hints of his “darker past” didn’t seem to indicate anything more than needed bloody warfare. However, in light of OB, I found the passage more troubling…
How did Jasnah come to believe Dalinar has a greater heart than Adolin who’s basically one the most selfless character we have met so far? Even if his behavior with Renarin did improve, Dalinar still isn’t a naturally empathetic nor compassionate individual: he strives to improve those personality traits, but Jasnah goes into the hyperboles here and it seems OOC for her to do so.
I agree, based on Sadeas’s known personality, it wouldn’t have been a stretch for others to think he indeed is responsible for Rathalas. I can accept this, I can accept Navani accepts this, but why does Jasnah readily does the same?
No matter how I shuffle it, I keep on finding it odd how Jasnah could come up with such a positive view of her uncle given everything she did witness and her penchant for seeking the uncomfortable truth. She isn’t one to believe what she wants, she is one to believe the truth, no matter how harsh it may be. So why is her truth about Dalinar so positive? Why does it seem to exclude Dalinar’s worst behaviors as if they had never happened?
My one conclusion is Jasnah simply does not find any of Dalinar’s past behaviors truly reprehensible including how he behaved with Renarin. Still, how every single member of the Kholin family have this “ecstatic views of Dalinar” has been bothering me for a long time. Dalinar himself has a more balanced opinion on his own self, why does everyone has this extraordinarily positive view of him? Where is the balance, the nuance, the realistic take some people out to have had? Not everyone can hero-worship Dalinar, this makes no sense, at least it doesn’t to me.
Hopefully, RoW sheds new light onto it by having the Kholin family react to the truth about Rathalas.
@36: And that’s a recurring problem Dalinar has: he always thinks what he feels, what he wants, what he believes are more important than what anyone else’s feels, wants nor believes.
Dalinar thinks about what the ardents feel. He sees the conflict for the ardents if they have to serve a heretic because they are his slaves while their church tells them they should have no contact with him. He doesn’t consider the political or social consequences for his people if they no longer have access to ardents, but unlike those who think he has no right to give away Kholin possessions he thinks about them as people, not objects he (or someone else) owns. Is it even the office of Highprince that owns the ardents, or Dalinar personally? Or are there no rules about that because the Alethi don’t see a difference between the two?
@34 Isilel
Personally don’t think size comes into depending on the Unmade. There are enough perfect gemstones to trap them all. This is the WoB I was referring to:
Questioner
Are there enough perfect gemstones on Roshar to capture all of the Unmade?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, there are.
Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)
As to Jasnah and Malata, I just took it as practice. The more you use the surge, the better you are with it.
Gepeto @37: Here’s the exact quote:
“Though at times he lacks foresight, Adolin has a good heart— as good as that of his father, who may be the best man I have ever known.”
@40: Yes, this was it. Thank you for finding it again. This is where Jasnah says states Dalinar is the best man she has even known.
@37
Funny, that you write this, because its quite the opposite. Most of his life he stepped back for Gavilar, you see it with Navani, you see it with the Kingdom, even with his war. and afterwards too with Elhokar. That he acts differently now is because he realised what he wants, uniting Roshar to stop the human apocalypse, IS in fact more important than what others want.
@Gepeto:
Jasnah is herself “rigid and emotionally cold” in your view. Her embracing Renarin is only the second time she’s really shown physical affection for anyone, isn’t it? Perhaps that’s why she and Dalinar get along.
The first time she showed affection, she hugged Dalinar after Gavilar’s funeral. Has she ever even touched Navani?
Jasnah is being written as someone with what psychs used to call a “schizoid personality.” The one sentence version is, someone who doesn’t make lots of deep attachments to other people. To her, a great heart might be someone with strong principles, not someone who shows strong affection for individuals.
@42: Actually, Dalinar himself summarizes his youth within those terms: they wanted things other had, so they took them. He spent a lifetime ignoring plans, rushing into battles, killing left and right without caring about the consequences. He always let others clean up his own mess. That’s basically how Brandon described young Dalinar: a man who was ready to shove responsibility for his actions on others and who didn’t care about consequences.
His relationship with Gavilar is pretty much the exception and not the rule. Gavilar was basically the only person Dalinar listened to and bowed down to.
With Elhokar, well, he pushed him away and stole his kingship… So…
And yes, his current goal is more important than what others want, but Dalinar still is the same man. When he dismisses the Ardents, the current discussion, Dalinar does what he wants because he is ill-at-ease with knowing the Ardents having to work with a heretic. This is all about him and he doesn’t think about other consequences. In other words, just because Dalinar’s great goal is sound and justified does not mean every single decision the man makes is not selfish. In the case at hands, we can see a lot of the old Dalinar: what he wants, what he says, he takes and gets. Again, just because what he mostly want, right now, is a good thing to want doesn’t change the fact he behaves the same within all aspects of his life.
Isn’t it how Adolin describes Dalinar too? A force of nature who forces boulders to move away without ever asking himself if the boulders wanted to move in the first place? Just because it might be a good idea for the boulder to move does not mean Dalinar should take for granted he is always right when he wants something… Or that the boulder absolutely needs to move.
@43: Well, my views of Jasnah are not universally agreed upon: there are those who have argued Jasnah was deeply emotional and compassionate. I tend to prefer to cut the pear in half: Jasnah is an emotionally cold individual, not unlike Dalinar, but her scene with Renarin showed more genuine emotions than Dalinar ever shown in all of his scenes.
In other words, despite having had far more page time exposure, Dalinar still did not manage to have one single scene where his heart guides his actions, against all odds, as beautifully as Jasnah did with Renarin. Not that Dalinar’s character never expressed emotions, but he has yet to have one scene where the love he has towards his closed ones dictates his actions against stronger reason. Sure, there was Tanalan Jr, but this was different… Dalinar spared a child who might have grown into an enemy (OK, he did but Dalinar did not know this at the time) whereas Jasnah spared a cousin she loved despite knowing he has ties to the Unmades and potentially Odium.
None of Dalinar’s scenes, with his sons, carry half the emotional weight the Jasnah/Renarin scene has. Yet.
Hence, I have internally concluded no matter how cold Jasnah is, she still seems to have a stronger ability at empathy than her uncle which surely would help her develop more balance views. So yes, she is rigid and emotionally cold, she surely sees eye to an eye with her uncle, she clearly does not disapprove of his past actions, but I do feel she ought to have been able to balance her thoughts better.
I do love the “schizoid personality” personality explanation though. I do think it is possible her definition of a “great heart” differs from the usual one and merely defines a man who stays true to his words, which is quite true of Dalinar. As you seems to imply, she may not have meant “selfless, empathetic, and compassionate”, but “honorable”. I tend to find the terms refer more to the former than the later. Hence, Adolin has a far greater heart than Dalinar, but he is not honorable. He’s more like Evi, he’ll stick to his words so long as his words does not generate a situation where people he cares about may be hurt. Once this happens, he’ll take extreme actions (there is a lingk to be made in between Evi running to Tanalan and Adolin brutally murdering Sadeas).
Jasnah, however, does not seem to have the same views. It’d be interesting to read more of her thought process in RoW. I still do not know if she is one of the nine characters and with Navani presumably being one, well, there might not be a lot of page time for Jasnah in the next book.
Noone was talking about young Dalinar
Like i said, he realised, that he cant hold that oath just to honor Gavilar and let the world burn while he does so.
yes he does
no he does absolutely not
@44:
And Dalinar *still* is this man. Merely because he has learned to control his impulses does not mean Dalinar has be born again into a completely different person. Dalinar, Gavilar, they were thugs. They took what they wanted because they wanted it. Sure, their motivations and means evolved, but Dalinar’s “benevolent goal” still is one he tries to get doing things his way. Then he gets blocked when foreign countries do not care about his ways: that’s when he starts to learn the concept of compromise, but he remains an individual having control issues. That too is in a WoB.
Actually, he realizes he had been usurping Elhokar’s throne for years, but deluded himself into believing he wasn’t. In OB, he merely accepted the truth of what he had already done for no reasons others than that’s just what he does. Dalinar takes control. He does things his way. He has always struggled in accepting someone else might be in control unless it was Gavilar.
He absolutely does.
In the scene at hand, Dalinar has a problem with believing the Ardents have a problem with him. He decides to solve the problem by releasing the Ardents. Does he consult with them before hand? Does he ask if they feel the same he believes they do feel? Does he seek to find a compromise? Does he ask what the Ardents think? No, he doesn’t. He just puts them in front of the nearly accomplished fact and then back-paddles when he gets a different tale.
This has been one of Dalinar’s recurrent issue: he often does not consult others when he makes his decisions. Sure, there are times when he truly knows best, but there are times where what he wants clashes with what other people wants. And what he wants is not always the best course of action.
In Adolin’s metaphor, the storm is Dalinar and the boulder is himself. Dalinar blows and expects the boulders to move accordingly: he never takes the time to check if the boulders want to move, if the boulders have an opinion on moving or if the boulders perhaps have another solution which is better.
@Gepeto:
You’re right about their behavior. Don’t forget, though, the Alethi “Showing public emotion is taboo” thing. He has started to show his feelings in less obvious ways, such as showing up for the scholarly discussion to avoid making Renarin the only non-Ardent, non-Stormwarden male there. He demonstrates there that he not only cares about Renarin, but is able to mentally put himself in his son’s place and realize how unhappy this shy young man will be (and also respect that Renarin will do it anyway, because it should be done).
You comment that Dalinar doesn’t ask the Ardents what they want, and that’s certainly correct. I wonder if he needs Kadash back as a subordinate, someone who is willing to challenge him when he misses something, the way Adolin clearly isn’t ready to do very often.
@47: I personally found Jasnah’s scene with Renarin carried more emotional weight than Dalinar’s support of Renarin.
Jasnah thought Renarin was evil, she thought he had become the enemy, she knew he had bounded a “corrupted” spren, she knew he wasn’t really a Truthwatcher: every fiber in her told her she had to kill him because he was dangerous because he was a traitor because he was a loose cannon. She is a woman heavily logic-driven, goal-oriented, and one to based her decision on emotionless reasoning: she will do the harsh thing if she believes it is the right course of action independently of how it makes her feel. And yet, here, she shoves everything down the sewer and she spared Renarin: he was the one sacrifice she was not willing to do, the one boundary she would not cross. Even if she has literally no proof Renarin is not a traitor nor dangerous, she puts *him* above all else, above reason, above her goals, above the faith of the world because she actually cares about him. She wants to win, but she does not want to win by having to slaughter a cousin she loved.
I find it a hundred times more powerful than Dalinar supporting Renarin because Dalinar has *yet* to state his sons’ life matters more than his goals. He has *yet* to put a boundary on how far he is willing to go to “save” the world. In other words, Dalinar has yet to stand in a moment where he has to choose in saving one of his sons, but potentially harm his cause or pick the safer option and stick with his goals. And watch one of his sons die, his back turned on him.
I have personally never been convinced Dalinar would not choose his cause and his goals over either Renarin or Adolin’s life. I would argue Dalinar’s lack of concern when Adolin gets wounded does seem to imply he would choose the goal, the Radiants, the fight he foresees and deems his sons the sacrifice he has to make.
Why am I not convinced? Because Dalinar is cold and often emotionless. Yes, this is the Alethi culture, yes he does love his sons, but how much does he really love them? Without any stronger outward demonstration of his love, I find it hard to believe they really matter that much to Dalinar. So far, we haven’t gotten this demonstration which doesn’t mean it will not happen, it just means it hasn’t happened with Dalinar, yet, but it has with Jasnah.
Jasnah, at least, has proven she was capable of empathy and compassion even if those aren’t her personality drivers.
@Gepeto:
It doesn’t, shouldn’t, and can’t.
@49: The war of unification showed us a legit goal can be nefarious if achieved the wrong way and Dalinar achieving his by allowing his sons to die would be the same. In other words, there are boundaries people should not be willing to step over and letting your own kids die for the shake of “unity” or “Radiant oaths” or “visions” is just one of them.
In other words, if Dalinar is not willing to do what Jasnah did with Renarin, then he definitely is not the right person to be leading the world. He would definitely not be a “great person” nor even a good one: he’d be just another Gavilar with a different disguise.
So for Dalinar’s shake, I hope he would not kill his sons to achieve his goals because I hope he actually really is a good person, now.
@49 Carl
You are right sort of. Words of Radiance page 591. Dalinar was going to go himself. Adolin told him not to, and Dalinar refused. Adolin then stands up to Dalinar saying that they need Dalinar’s visions. Adolin asked the room to deny that without Dalinar the kingdom would fall apart. Adolin said this was not a discussion, he was deciding for Dalinar. Dalinar lamented that it shouldn’t be that way. That a kingdom’s survival should not depend on one person. That he would not risk his son, and do it himself (his words). But every single person in the room agreed with Adolin (which includes Navani, Kaladin, Renarin, etc). They all agreed that Dalinar had to learn when to let others do what they do best, to let them do their job. Dalinar’s narrative arc started all the way back here, but fully culminated in Oathbringer when he learned to trust Navani and Jasnah to handle the Azish, Adolin to handle Jah Keved, and so on.
@Gepeto: Again, Jasnah isn’t speaking your opinion. She’s speaking as an Alethi, raised Vorin. Doing what it takes to win is super-ingrained in their culture. Note that she can’t live up to it herself. Twice, she refuses to murder a family member when (by her lights) it would be reasonable to do so.
In fact, if she had let Aesudan’s assassination go on, it might have prevented the Singer conquest of Kholinar and saved the lives of at least thousands. It was Queen Aesudan who both summoned the Unmade to the city, gave it a host, and by her profligacy damaged popular support for the Kholins.
@Scáth: I wrote, “… the way Adolin clearly isn’t ready to do very often.” That “very often” is there for a reason. :-0)
@52:
I do not understand why you state I am making Jasnah speak my opinion when all I did is evaluate her behavior based on the existing narrative. I then voiced out what my personal opinion on her behavior was, how I believe it makes her a better person and how Dalinar has yet, to my eyes, to achieve the same.
As a result, I honestly do not know what more I could add.
I think Jasnah did well in sparing Renarin. I think her actions make her a better person and more empathetic then initial thought of. I am not convinced Dalinar would have done the same and it worries me. It worries me because I fear the ones who want to achieve their goals at all costs. In other words, if Dalinar has no cost, then he will become another Taravangian: a man who believes his benevolent goal justifies all possible means to achieve. Hence, if Dalinar would kill one of his sons to remove a potential threat, as Jasnah wanted, then he would stop being a “good person”. Dalinar needs to have a cost, a limit, a threshold and, so far, it is hard to visualize if he does have one since he is so goal-oriented and since he tends to view everyone as tools he can use (confirmed by WoB). And yes, the life of his children should matter or else Dalinar becomes nothing more than another dictatorial tyrant as if his own kids he loves do not matter, who *really* does? The answer is *no one* which poses a problem to said goal. And that’s a dangerous slope to go down on. That’s a slope Jasnah seems to have avoided. Dalinar has yet to prove he will avoid it. I am not saying he will not avoid it, I am saying he hasn’t demonstrated he readily would.
The end.
@52 Carl
Lol touche but that is why I said you were right “sort of”. Dalinar wanted to risk only himself, and wouldn’t allow his son to be put at risk.
“Impossible” Dalinar said “I won’t risk my son on-“
“Father!” Adolin snapped “This is not subject to discussion!”
It is only because Adolin stood up to Dalinar, saying it wasn’t a discussion, that Adolin was making the decision because (as you and Havi said) what Dalinar has to do is more important than anyone in that room. It is so important that everyone in the room agreed with Adolin. Dalinar said no, but everyone else said yes, because of how important it was to stop the parshendi. That was the main crux of my post (or at least my intention). Dalinar is too important. He doesn’t want to be, but he has to be.
@Scáth, agreed. And as you quoted, Dalinar doesn’t like being that important, at least partly because one person is always prone to dying at an inconvenient time.